- People with kids in the clinic (waiting room or hallway) don't want their kids in there any more than you do. Perhaps more. It's no place for kids. Some people (many in fact) have NO CHOICE.
- The idea that you would cancel a cycle due to a lack of child care is STUPID. If we did that, our doctor would laugh at us and then tell us we obviously weren't serious about the process and would probably refuse to treat us any more.
- My child is not hurting you. The other children in the waiting room are not hurting you. Infertility is hurting you. For that, I am sorry. I wish there was something I could do for you, but there isn't. There is something I can do for our own infertility, though, and that's to undergo treatment. Which we are going to do, even if we have to bring our kid.
- Don't blame mothers for having to bring their kids. Secondary Infertility is just that. Infertility. Kids are part of the process. Clinics are NOT just for infertile people with no kids. It's for all infertiles, primary and secondary. If you have to blame someone, blame the clinics for not having a separate "family" waiting room. Believe me, we'd love that.
- It's not my responsibility to make you comfortable in the waiting room. It's my responsibility to make my wife comfortable, and to take care of my family and make sure everyone is safe and well cared for. If that impedes on your comfort, then I do regret that. But again, not my problem. How you cope with things is YOUR problem.
- My wife and I have been in BOTH camps. We have been the sad childless infertiles sitting in the waiting room, hurting inside and wishing we were pregnant. I've given mothers and their kids dirty looks. I'm also now the guy who sometimes (literally only 3 times) has had to bring his kid to the clinic. I have the benefit of wearing BOTH pairs of shoes. You have still only been in one. To gain comfort with this, you will have to come to terms with the fact that there are some things you just do not understand, because you have not been there. When you have a baby, and no childcare, or your sitter has called in sick at the last minute, and you have a belly full of follicles you've been working on for 6 weeks with daily shots, BCP, Lupron, etc, believe me, you're not canceling your f'ing cycle. You're bringing your kid.
- Finally, let me tell you about my neighbor...actually, she's the person we bought our house from. Only recently did we find out that she struggled with infertility for years. And she went through some pretty hard core treatments...surgeries, a strict diet of Lu.pron and Follist.im...you get the picture. Anyway, after almost 4 years of this she finally gave birth to a baby girl this past June and when we talked to her about this she said "Seeing kids in the waiting room used to upset me, but I fought hard for this kid and there is NO way when I start the fight for my second that I'm leaving my little pride and joy with some stranger who I'm paying $20 an hour just so I can pop in for a 10 minute blood draw and ultra sound...NO WAY!!"
That is all I have to say on this matter.
29 comments:
I've only been in one pair of shoes so far, but I could not agree with you more! I don't expect the world to change just because I'm hurting!
totally agree, smarsh. 100%
I didn't get in on the comments on the other post... sensitive issue I guess... I agree with this post 100%.
I am planning for the worst case scenario when we start TTC #2 this coming summer.... and that is I will be at the Fertility Clinic. We do not have family living near us... we have some friends. Who work. Will Piper come to the clinic with me? With us? If I can't avoid it, then yes she will.
Parents don't bring their children to hurt the patients waiting there. Not to mention that my Fertility Clinic is also a Women's Clinic so some of the patients there are not there for Fertility treatments... how am I to know which is which.
Family waiting areas would be ideal.
I'm diggin on the two waiting rooms ideas. I have never seen kids at my clinic but I imagine it would be better for everyone. Kids movies playing in one waiting room with games and magazines for kids and parents, grown up magazines in the other with some sappy chick flick movie in...
I'm sorry I caused an uproar on your blog. I've only been reading blogs for a few months and had no idea that this was such a contentious issue for so many; I was expecting people to call me out for being a b*tch for even saying anything to you. I didn't mean to pull the rug out from under you at a time when you need MORE support, not LESS. I'm truly sorry for that.
I think you are a terrific husband, father, blogger/member of the IF community and an all around swell guy...but you are a man and you haven't been if MY shoes either. The ONLY time I've ever really had a problem w/ children in the waiting room was when my body was trying to expel MY CHILD. The idea that the woman that Buggins accidentally called "mama" MIGHT have been (for all you knew) in the same situation...well, frankly, that's what makes this incident beyond the pale.
Having said all that...I'm glad you and M got such a great fert report yesterday. I hope your embryos are thriving and Buggins soon has an equally adorable sibling. I promise not to bring any more negativity to your blog. I've seen your wonderful, supportive comments on a friend's blog and I know that you deserve the same support in return. Best wishes.
Well said, Smarsh - all very good points.
I am in the first camp - infertile with no children. When I first started going for treatment I would have all sorts of feelings when I saw children in the waiting room - anger, sadness, jealousy - you name it.
But as time went on and we went through treatment after treatment I think it began to sink in that if the people in the waiting room weren't infertile like me then they wouldn't be there.
It's not like the IVF unit is somewhere fun to bring your child on a Saturday morning at 8am! So now when I see a child there I think nothing of it. But it had to evolve a little, it definitely did not happen right away.
What I DO think is terrible about the clinic that we both go to, Smarshy, is that they have the birthing classes right next door to the IVF unit. Have you ever noticed that?? Not like they could put them on the OBGYN floor or somewhere not right in front of all the infertiles!
Quick story:
The day we were going in for the blood test that would tell us our first IVF cycle had failed (we knew it was over), we rode up in the elevator with an obviously pregnant woman and her husband who looked at me (in my puffy coat) and said "oh are you going for birthing classes too?" *insert obnoxiously huge smile here*. I just looked at her with my tear filled eyes and said "no" and didn't look at her again.
I mean. Seriously people. Find another place to put the birthing classes!!!
Mini rant over :)
It is a very sensitive subject in general but there are always two sides of the story and I try to think how I would feel if I were in the other person's shoes.
KS, thanks for tyour comments, I don't fault you for bringing this up at all, it's an important topic. I WILL say that is it IS my responsibility to make sure that Buggins doesn't harrass or interact with other patients, and to make sure she doesn't call them "Mama". I failed that responsibility that day.
you rock.
I missed the earlier debate, but have to say I'm in the PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, for the love of God, TRY not to bring your kid to the fertility clinic. I understand it might be impossible for childcare, and both parents might be needed at the clinic on some days, but for the days when you don't both need to be there it just seems really, really wrong.
I respect that you tried to keep her in the hallway.... and that slip-ups (as horrifying as I would find that if it happened to me while waiting to get devistating news) happen. I think the hallway idea is a FINE idea. But I've had times when folks parade into the waiting room, are LOUDLY interacting with their child, let their child RUN AROUND the waiting room and bump into waiting women's legs, and expect me to "smile" and find it endearing and cute. (I am not suggesting this is you.)
But your neighbor's comment about not using childcare THAT IS AVAILABLE is wrong. Vet the teen; check the references; have them take a CPR course. But if the (vetted, CPR-certified, etc) babysitter is available, and you choose to bring the kid anyway? I just think that is selfish.
I've thought a lot about how we would deal with secondary IF (if we make it to that point) and the best I can come up with on those days when BOTH of us would need to be there (really only ER and ET) is to maybe fly my mom in for a few days. I recognize that even that may be impossible. But the fact that you *try* is what counts. The fact that you *do* wait in the hallway with Buggins. I just don't understand those that almost seem to be TRYING to draw attention to their child(ren) in an IF waiting room. And I've had it happen, more than once.
But thank you for waiting in the hallway-- that shows you do understand.
Yellowgirlnc@yahoo.com
Wow Smarshy, I hadn't read the comment to that orignal Buggins story. I just went to read them, that's quite a hornet's nest.
I have no kids and I feel the pain of seeing cute, adorable children at the place where I go because I want them so bad. But I never judge parents who have their children there. If I knew the parents had a choice and didn't take it, I might be a little upset, still not mine to judge though.
The reality is, that just because you have one child doesn't mean that infertility affects you less. Just because you have one child doesn't mean that you should lose the support of your partner when you are going through one of the most difficult things of your life.
And the fact that M has cried so many tears about child care is heartbreaking. No mother should have to be that distressed about their one pride and joy that it would actually affect their decision to try for a second. NOT EVER.
If this issue is so important to some people, they should speak to their clinic about setting up a family waiting room, or seek out a clinic that specifically denies children. My clinic does neither, and although they schedule ob appointments in the afternoon and cycling appointments in the morning, you do occassionally see young children in the waiting room with mothers who are cycling. On good days I smile at them and enjoy them, on bad days I turn my head and cry a few tears for what I wish I had. That's not those mother's problem. They didn't choose infertility for me... and they didn't choose it for themselves either.
I'm yet another random infertile thinking and obsessing about IVF.
I had no idea anyone would have the expectation that a waiting room (even in the RE office) be a child-free zone. OBVIOUSLY, if there were other options, the child wouldn't be there, right? I mean the parents know that it's not fun for their kids. I agree that if someone's child is disrupting the vibe (anywhere), the parent has to a) gain control and b)demonstrate the appropriate sensitivity to others. Sounds like Miss Buggins got away from Dad (bound to happen sometimes), and it sounds like Mr. Smarshy totally took control and was sensitive to the patient in question.
We've been trying for two years. In that time, 20 of our close friends/co-workers have gotten pg and/or delivered. IT is in our face in a BIG way all the time! Infertility has made me more fragile than I usually want to admit or think about; I totally understand the desire to have a child-free zone sometimes, but it's just not reasonable. I hope that if I AM feeling extremely fragile in the clinic for whatever reason, my guy or someone close to me will come to be with me in the waiting room....just like Mr. Smarshy did for his wife.
In my clinic, my RE likes to point out which kids are "his". ;)
Wow - looks like I missed some earlier comments. IMO - there no need to justify anything that you need to do to take care of your family. You do wait in the hall respectfully and Buggins running in there was an accident. It's all part of this messy thing called life - we do the best we can and will sometimes unintentionally hurt other people.
Lola - seriously, a birthing class?! ugh!
I missed the earlier drama too.
You are right on.
Personally, I think it would be hard for me to sit in a waiting room and see kids. Like today, when I was getting my u/s I was waiting with a LOT of pregnant women. That was a little hard.
But frankly, you're right. It is not YOUR problem or your reponsibility to help me cope with my infertility.
I personally think that isolating yourself from kids anywhere because it's too painful is NOT HEALTHY. That's not coping, it's denial.
Anyway. I'm with you 100%.
Another thought: perhaps the lady's interaction with Buggins was part of her journey. I know my pain has ultimately been my growth. If you had told me that when I was in the middle of pain, I would have told you to go to hell. Please don't mistake this for glib pollyanna-ish assvice. Just my experience and perhaps another perspective.
Delurking just to say I agree with you.
To me kids in the waiting room just shows that all of this crap sometimes actually works!
People hardly even look at one another in my waiting room. And.. the clinic has baby stuff all over the place - tons of photos of babies from successful IF'ers and baby magazines and posters of babies. But, that's what this is about.
- Laura
First of all, congratulations on the stellar fertilization report. That is AWESOME!
I guess I miised the huge debate about the kids in the waiting room. I think that being infertile just makes a person hypersensitive and aware of every child everywhere. If seeing a baby makes me cry (and sometimes it does), that is my issue, it's not the child or parent's fault for being there. Kids are going to be everywhere. Part of the journey is learning to cope with the challenges that come with each day. Case in point: We just moved to a new office and there is a daycare playground outside of my window. So I get to hear them sqealing every day at 10am. So days I look out there and it makes me smile. Other days, it makes me want to bawl uncontrollably.
Smarshy, you are a good guy and I appreciate your perspective. And being there for your wife (babysitter or not)is what's most important.
Fertilisation - awesome, congratulations!
Your general tone in this post - a tad defensive. I'm sure some of that previous discussion upset you, but I'm not sure that those comments justified some of the tenor you show in this post. Yes, no one can understand your siutation, but smarshy you're a smart guy so I'm sure you didn't think that nilla was saying that bringing kids to the fertility clinic was LIKE drunk driving, she just said that she FELT similarly definite in her attitude towards the two things. So I think what you said in that second bullet is unjustified, and belies the thoughtfulness of some of the rest of your writing.
I saw in one of your replies on the other comments thread that you used to take the buggins to starbucks, but you stopped because others didn't do that. I'm not going to belie your intelligence by pointing out by analogy that that is really a bit of a specious argument. (btw the allow-ability of children has NOTHING to do with how cute they are, they are all painful to see on some days - probably more painful if they are more cute!)
You and M in the end need to do what's right for you and for Buggins (and hopefully for baby to be). But you can't expect those of us who still have to cross the threshold into having a family to feel ok about it. I am able to understand that if someone is there with a child alone, then they almost certainly had no choice. But I think I am also entitled to expect that
(i) if both partners are there, the male partner can take the child elsewhere - for at least some of the appointment
(ii) if one or both parents is/are there, then they will ensure the child is well behaved, and if not, remove the child.
You've made a great effort on (ii) and it sounds like (i) is also on your conscience. Please try to understand the other points of view that were being expressed here, rather than feeling angry/defensive with anyone who said they felt uncomfortable with what you did. If they didn't care about you and your success, they would not be posting comments at all.
We all want this not to be an issue for you again.
The bottom line is, if someone tells you something you're doing causes them pain, you should make all efforts not to do it.
totally agree. and i've been in the IF waiting room when a couple made a very loud cell phone call announcing they were pregnant. in the waiting room. bringing children in has nothing on that. however, it is what we all strive for. so it's nice to see that it works, and that they were so excited.
our youngest came to us in april. i was undergoing a round of injections with iui at the time. we had no choice but to take her with us. on both sides it was horrific. trust me, we did not want a 5 year old whose "mom" had just gone into the hospital watching me learn how to inject myself and thinking her new mom was also sick. we told her they were allergy shots. (hubs wanted to watch too, since he ended up giving them to me.) and yes, i felt guilty toting her along. but as much for her sake as anyone else's that might be bothered with it. and when we left i told my husband, "we were just the morons that took the child into the infertility clinic." it's just not fun for anyone.
and that rant was way too long. well said smarshy. and nice egg report.
myunbornjournals.blogspot.com
(i meant totally agree with smarshy - not necessarily with other comments! sorry!)
Even if we did not take into consideration the other patients' feelings, I don't see why you couldn't leave your child at home with a good nanny. In my opinion it would have been the best solution for the kid herself. I'd rather spend money on private child care than take my kid to places where he is uncomfortable. In my opinion this topic has more to do with respect for the child's needs than for the infertiles' needs.
By the way, the financial issue of not being able to pay for a nanny for a few hours a week does not make any sense in this context.
May, I don't know why I didn't think of this! I'll just go into my back yard where I have planted my "Good Private Nanny" tree, and I'll pick myself a plump, juicy, private nanny.
Problem solved.
Nanny's are ridiculously hard to find. Through an agency, there is a joining fee of $2-5 thousand dollars, plus the actual $25/ hr fee. PLus the 1 yr comittment. They need a schule, too. You can't give a schedule set in stone during a cycle. Take today, for example. We are gtting a call from the RE in an hour. He'll either say come in today (within the hour) for a 3 day transfer, or come in Sunday. That kind of ambiguity would NOT work for a nanny.
Also, since these appts are in the daytime, teens are out, since they either work or are at school.
People, when I said that we have exhausted other options, I wasn't joking. We've DONE the research.
Dude, you said earlier you used to take Buggins to Starbucks. Take her to Starbucks!
No need to get defensive about nannies or babysitters... you already cooked up a solution and you've used it on a number of occasions. So keep with it. Starbucks needs your money anyway so they can raise funds to open another franchise; they're hurting for business.
I just don't understand why seeing children at the REs is so overwhelmingly painful. It seems extremely self centered to give others a hard time for bringing their kids to the RE. They are not doing it to cause YOU pain. It isn't about YOU at all. If it has gotten to this point--that it is devastating to see children at the REs-- one's emotions have gotten out of hand. Self pity has taken over ones life.
Nilla's last post was over the top...the drunk driving thing. Come on now. The vehemence seems to indicate a total lack of perspective or balance.
I have to tell you that the hardest part about this post and the subsequent comments were how Vanilla ended up being in the cross-hairs. This wasn't supposed to be about what she specifically said.
And I should note that I don't read Vanilla so I'm not here in her defense, but I read her comments to the earlier post. I read your responses. I read this post, and again more comments. Somehow the train got derailed, and that's unfortunate for everyone because the point somehow became blurred in the process.
If you're always told within an hour notice, then you're obviously right and I am obviously wrong.
We've had a few part-time nannies/baby-sitters since my children were babies. They have a fixed schedule but, because of the friendship that is established between them and us, they are willing to change it if there is an "emergency". At the beginning I was reluctant to hire a nanny, I thought that I did not need one and that I was somehow wasting my money. Now, after ten years, I realize that it was a good choice for my personal well-being and for the one of our family. Also, we've had great nannies, all of them.
Even if your wife will never work anymore, I don't see how she could cope with the second child if she can't rely on someone's help. The risk of becoming unhappy or depressed is high. You already know that babies and toddlers ask for a constant attention. It is much harder to be in their company at home than to work outside.
Now there is a sensitive subject!! :)
During my 11 year battle with infertility I did not do so well around other peoples children. Sadly I personally could not handle it. Due to the way I felt during my primary infertility battle I just couldn't bring my twins to the clinic the second time around, which became very complicated given my clinic is 4 hours away. It meant that my husband was only with me when he needed to 'do his part', and I found that very difficult. I think that 2 waiting rooms would be the best option for everyone but I am not sure how well that would work.
I don't think there are any easy answers to this issue but you need to do what's best for your family.
Good luck!
Wow, you love some controversy boy! I've posted on this topic so you know my thoughts. All I can say is that I hope to see the other side (and hope my sitter doesn't cancel).
Wow, Smarshy, I have to say, I am disappointed with how you seem to be directing your comments towards me.
I'm not the only one who feels similarly about this issue, as you know. Not cool that you are singling me out.
I actually wasn't even reading your blog, OR the comments, so had no idea that you were even still talking about this subject until another blogger mentioned it to me! I honestly thought it was done! (As I said, this issue has been talked up and down IF circles for years)
And, you have COMPLETELY misconstrued what I said.
Perhaps you should have just emailed me if you really had that much of a problem with my comments? (Which, by the way, were never directed AT you, you'll notice that I have never once told you or anyone else what to do. I've just been stating what I will do.) I mean, if you were planning on singling me out on your blog, I personally feel you should have sent me an email to clarify that you actually understood what I said.
Anyway, the very lovely Thalia, as usual, has it correct. My point, as I stated in my comment, was that I FEEL strongly about my convictions. I used an exteme example (which I DID say in my comment was extreme), but I was NOT comparing the two as being the "same thing".
Please, let me explain this, once AGAIN:
I did NOT say that "drinking and driving" is the "same" as "bringing babies to fertility clinics." I did NOT say that. Please read my comment if you think I said that!
What I DID say was:
I feel very strongly about all of my convictions in life. So strongly, that I can tell you that I *PERSONALLY* will never take my child to a fertility clinic.
I feel so strongly about this conviction that to ILLUSTRATE this point, I said that "SIMILARLY to how I feel strongly about the fact that I will never drink & drive, I ALSO feel strongly about the fact that I will not ever take my child to a fertility clinic."
It's just one of many personal decisions and convictions I have in my life. Do you understand the comparison now? I'm NOT saying that one is better or worse, I am merely stating that I feel strongly about many things in my life, and those are just a couple of examples.
Why am I not allowed to say this? What is wrong with my conviction? If I've decided that I'll never take any child of mine to a fertility clinic, why do you feel it necessary to argue with me?
If you read my comment, you'll find I never told YOU what to think or feel, or do. I just stated what *I* would do in this situation, which I feel I have a right to do.
I mean, feel free to insert WHATEVER decision or conviction you like into that statement. Driving a car, being a vegetarian, voting, smoking, discipline for your pets/children, liking the color red, whatever..... I was just using ONE decision to illustrate my point! I did NOT say that "drinking and driving" is "as bad" as "bringing one's child to a fertility clinic." I did NOT say that! All I was saying is that I felt as strongly about this issue, as I do about any other issue, decision, or conviction in my life. Just as I made the decision to never smoke (and I didn't have to try it first to make that decision) or drink & drive, or like the color blue, or whatever else, I made the decision long ago that should I ever get to "the other side" with this fertility crap, my husband and I will not be bringing our child to the clinic. That's just the decision we have made for OUR FAMILY. It doesn't mean that everyone else has to do the same thing! I never said that. Just because *I* have a conviction about something, doesn't mean I walk around telling others to do the same, or to feel differently about theirs.
Also, I don't NEED to have a child first to have this conviction! Frankly, it insults my intelligence, and I also find it hurtful to hear that. Believe me, I'm painfully aware that I do NOT have a child. But seeing as how my husband and I have discussed this issue at length, and we have decided how we will handle this situation, I think that gives us a right to say what we will do. Hopefully you can see how this might be similar to other convictions one might have? Like how one will conduct his or her life, etc., etc.?
But you know what it comes down to? I have put myself in a position where I can say what I've said, and KNOW for a fact, that I'll be able to follow through.
Why? Because I wouldn't be planning on having children if I didn't already have a support system in place.
If I didn't have friend and relative support, my husband and I wouldn't be trying to have children right now. To us, having those resources near by is very important.
We HAVE friends, relatives, neighbours, and co-workers that I KNOW we can rely on. As I said before, I know not everyone does! So when I say *I* would NOT plan an IVF or FET cycle without childcare, I really, really mean that. Who are you to challenge me? Or imply that my convictions are silly or ridiculous, or ill-informed, or naive, or whatever it is you think? It may not be the same for everyone, but I *PERSONALLY* have the friends and relatives around me that I can rely on. And if we had to delay or cancel our cycle - so what? It's already taken SO LONG for us to even get to THIS point, that delaying it another few months really wouldn't matter to us in the end! Because, we're hypothesizing that at this point, that we actually HAVE child #1! Trust me, we have already faced so many delays and miscarriage and loss and so-called "breaks" in between cycles, that if we actually had Child #1, we seriously wouldn't be fretting over child #2 as much. Really! So, if it really came down to exhausting ALL of my resources (which would be insanely unlikely), and I had to postpone a cycle to keep MY conviction, yes, I damn well would do it. That's not naive or stupid of me to say -- that is being true to my convictions. And really, if that's my conviction, why should anyone argue with it?
And I said this in my previous comment: I'm NOT telling anyone what to do! I'm just stating how I feel -- I'm not asking YOU or ANYONE else to DO anything about it.
Thalia was right when she said your overall tone is quite defensive. I'm not sure why you are so defensive, particularly towards me, as I never actually told YOU what to do.
All I wanted to share was how *I* felt, and to share what *I* will do in these circumstances. I'm really not sure where that gives you the right to argue with my convictions?
And, finally, at least I HOPE finally! -- even IF all of my resources were exhausted regarding child care, I would GO BY MYSELF. If it was too late to cancel or postpone, I would go by myself, and my husband would stay with said child. I've already been to the clinic by myself, and had an FET without my husband. No, it's not the ideal situation, but if I had to go to the clinic by myself again in the future, I would do it. This is what *I* would do -- I never once said that this is what others must do!
After all, if anyone had a conviction about something, would they not do all in their power to uphold that conviction? I like to think so. After all, if we aren't willing to do everything in our power, why make a decision or hold a conviction about something at all?
I said over and over again in my original comment that OTHERS will do what they feel and want to do. I am not trying to tell others what to do, and yet when I say what *I* will do, you argue with me! Why? Why cannot I just state my personal feelings, and how I will handle this situation, and you leave it at that?
Let's just face facts, there ARE some people who will NEVER take their kid to a fertility clinic (I know, I've spoken to them), and there are others that will and do. That's just how it is.
Two clinic waiting rooms REALLY do exist, and they work EXTREMELY well, from what I hear. I wish that they were more common, so that this issue would be easier for everyone. Because sadly, if a fertility clinic cannot be a "safe place", then there is no "safe place" for infertiles undergoing treatment. Not even one's home! One cannot even turn on the television without being bombarded with news stories on pregnancies, pregnant celebrities, and sitcoms & dramas filled with suddenly pregnant characters. One cannot stay at home, without at least being hit once with a "pregnancy drive-by" through a phone call or email. The list goes on and on. Somedays, we handle it better than others, this is true. But, in most cases, if a woman is sitting in a fertility clinic, and she just found out that her baby is dead, it's pretty damned painful for her to see a pregnant woman, baby, toddler, or child right in front of her. And I sincerely hope that no one can find argument with that. :(
In conclusion, since you completely misconstrued my original comment and twisted it into something I did not say or imply, I would very much appreciate you removing my name from your post. Thank you.
Nilla
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